An FCC commissioner has called on Apple and Google to remove TikTok from their app stores. Brendan Carr, a Republican member of the commission, said that the Chinese-owned app “poses an unacceptable national security risk due to its extensive data harvesting being combined with Beijing's apparently unchecked access to that sensitive data." Karim Hijazi, CEO of Prevailion, breaks down the potential threats posed by TikTok, how it's different from other popular apps, and if the ban will actually come to pass. “This access to the data for supposedly improving the application is being accessed by Chinese engineering groups that could be susceptible to government control or coercion or perhaps or even working for the government. This is a big concern that I think everyone has.”

Opening Bell

FCC Commissioner Calling on App Stores to Drop TikTok

here with more insight on this. Is Karim Hijazi Ceo of prevail Iun Karim, can you just break down this letter for us and the actual or specific death threat from Tiktok that the sc FCC sites here? Yes, thank you for having me. So it's an interesting threat because it's sort of a revival of what we saw probably two years ago now. I think when president trump was pushing really heavily for the banning of Tiktok as an app across all the stores, whether there be apple or google and really what this all stems from is recordings that were somehow collected of engineers that were chinese that were suggesting that they had access to data that was otherwise thought to be completely american controlled and protected. And so that's caused quite a dust up and Frankly No one really knows to what degree the data has been secured. Everything to this point was implying that the data was being stored in Oracle servers in Texas and the recording suggests that while that may be accurate, the access to that data from chinese engineers was still available in an unfettered way, which is the concern here. So the sec commissioner absolutely has every right to be concerned that our data albeit suggestive that it's on prem or domestic is still being accessible by foreign nationals governments. I find it interesting because in a way you kind of outline the threat. However, I feel like when the FCC is citing this information, um, we don't really see the actual level of, of actual harm. Is there actual harm here that the FCC can site. and do you anticipate some of that being a bit more transparent than it has or that it hasn't been in the past? Well, what's interesting and you're right, you know, so that is the outline of where the problem lies. The problem is not so much that the data is the data, the data is not not too distant from what we get with other apps. Right? There's there's location data, there's personal information like, you know, name, location birthdays that's not unique to Tiktok. What is concerning is that it's a CCP government group that may very well have unfettered access to that data in more of an espionage or counter intelligence effort against U. S. Citizens and that's the concern. Right? So this has less to do with about where the data resides. It's more about the access to it. And unfortunately, you know, there's a heightened issue with regard to china from a cybersecurity perspective. So anything along the lines of, you know, something like Tiktok which has a massive amount of user ship and that level of collection which shows an immense amount of data. Again, it's that that's additive that really creates the problem here. Obviously when we hear data collection, I think the average person is now savvy enough to know that, you know, across all the social media platforms, we see that, how is this different though this data collection different from other apps like instagram facebook or Snapchat, is it just simply because china is involved here and there's a you know, outside kind of national country interest. I think that's probably the main thrust of the problem is that the foundational company is chinese in origin by dance is a chinese organization. Sure operations are in the U. S. But then this access to the data for supposedly improving the application is being accessed by chinese engineering groups that could be susceptible to government control or coercion or perhaps or even working for the government. This is the big concern that I think everyone has. There's probably more information than what's being shared with us generally from a public perspective about why there's such a concern but your 100 correct. It's foundational based on the chinese issue getting use of making use of this data for something more espionage oriented. As you pointed out earlier. Obviously former president trump previously tried to force bytedance to sell Tiktok back in 2020 that kind of died down. But can you talk a little bit of what happened to that effort and why there is this kind of renewed sense of urgency now what has truly changed or is it just something's been invigorated? So a couple of things happened. So one there was a whole push to sell the company to an american organization that would own it. So the whole goal was to sort of bring the data the provenance of the data back to the U. S. Where restrictions could be enforced. So that's the issue that there's been a lot of talk by bytedance and Tiktok that they have enforcement in place. They have restrictions in place for sharing of data and you know, adhering to privacy laws. The problem is once the data gets out of our control or once access is given all bets are off. Right. So that's the number one problem there. Now, what's going on is Tiktok's grown massively right since that time, there's just exponentially more users on it than there ever were. Um, and so the data collection in the utility of that data is even more compelling now. And then of course those recordings that were procured by, I think it was some news agency that got ahold of those recordings really are kind of the, you know, smoking gun that the chinese engineering groups that possibly have ties with the CCP are getting access to that data. So that's what's caused the dust up right now. I'm curious what do you think the response is going to be from Apple and google? Do you expect that they're gonna follow through with the commissioner's request to take down Tiktok man. It's a big gap there. They benefit from quite a bit. I mean it's one of the most I think highly downloaded apps ever. There's a huge huge fan base that they're going to be irritating with it. So they have to make a very critical decision about how much they're going to say, well, because they're not really controlled the data collection part of it, they're simply the purveyors of the app itself. So I don't know how much control they're going to have from a legal perspective to maintain it in their stores if there's a real push down from government, so to speak to say, take it out. Um, it may trickle into oracle where the data is being stored. Um, and it may go further into more of an international review. Now, it's a great question. I'd love to see what happens. This is a classic case of commercial versus government having very, very different opinions and decisions for profit purposes. My, my theory and I said this on the show yesterday is that we see Apple and google come back and maybe kick this this down the road a little bit and say, hey, provide us more information, give us some more insight into the level of the threat. Um, but but outside of that, I'm just curious, does the FCC have authority to go further and like formally ban Tiktok altogether. I think that there's clear evidence that Tiktok is collecting this information that is again, not unlike other apps, but there's proof that that intelligence or call it intelligence because that's what it's going to be utilized for in a more nefarious capacity beyond marketing purposes if that's really the case, yes, I think they will have the means to sort of say, look, this is an illegal app, it actually is in breach of the rules that you have to abide by to build an app that lives on these stores. There are really strict regulations that Apple and google both impose about privacy. You have to abide by those rules when you create these applications and a lot of it has to do with what you do with the data after it's collected. So if they can prove that they will actually indeed have that power to force Apple and google to do what they need to do. I have two questions for you on the consumer side. One, in terms of the request of the FCC is making, this is to take it down from the app store. That would just from my understanding that would just ban people from uploading the app and then signing onto Tiktok. But those who already have the app, they'll still be able to utilize the app they've already downloaded, correct? Absolutely. And then there's the other concern which is that the minute you take something away from the legal environments that you're able to get it. There are other ways to to get the app purveyed out there, which will create even more of a problem which are fake apps that look like Tiktok or fraudulent apps that are malware that actually have all the branding associated. So it'll be a bit of a bonanza for cybercriminals to to execute on. So this does unravel into quite a chaotic mess, whichever direction you go in. So yeah, I don't, I think we're in for a bit of a ride with it. I never even considered that, but that's obviously a really good point to kind of hone in on my second question on the consumer side of things is, is how worrisome should users actually be about their privacy on Tiktok? I mean, is this really a scenario where people should be considering deleting the app from their phones because of the level of privacy that maybe they don't enjoy. They think they do. Well, it's interesting, you know, I think it's very personal. Um you know, a lot of kids love this app. My kids, you know, present company included a lot of military and intelligence folks absolutely do not have it on their devices. Certainly work device is very hard to impose people not to be able to use it on a personal. I'm talking about enforcement. Obviously you ask me whether people should be concerned or not. I think that the reality is that it doesn't, in my opinion, honestly collect any more information than some of the other applications do. It's really about how comfortable you might be with a foreign government possibly getting access to that information. You know, it depends on what line of work you're in. I think it does have implications for certain folks that maybe deal with sensitive information and maybe are in sensitive locations because that information is being shared with Tiktok and the people that view that intelligence and information, Kareem, really good insight on this subject. Obviously it's a story that, you know, touches a lot of consumers, but also raises the eyebrow about privacy and some of these big tech companies what they're gonna have to do to kind of adjust the times that are currently, Kareem really appreciate again, your inside, Karim Hijazi Ceo of Pavilion.