Richard Ingersoll - Professor of Education and Sociology, University of Pennsylvania joins Cheddar to break down how the pandemic shutdowns left a lasting mark on American students, teachers and the entire education system.

None of the Above 

Two Years Into The Pandemic: How Has America's Education System Changed?

Welcome back to none of the above. Two years ago, schools all across the country and really the world closed their doors as the COVID-19 pandemic first set in, educators and administrators found themselves scrambling to try and figure out ways to keep students engaged, keep them learning. This is the entire education system moved into a remote format. Two years later, things seem to be moving in the right direction as schools reopen masks slowly come off while it all sounds good, experts say there are still long term implications lingering from the years of remote learning that students had. And joining the show now is Richard ingersoll. Richard is professor of education sociology at U. Penn. Thanks a lot for being here. So how these school closures, impacted students and their ability to learn. We we've talked a fair bit about it, but I still think it's really worth underscoring and driving home just maybe what what has happened to our students that maybe we're not paying close enough attention to. Well, the key challenge with teaching and I'm a former high school teacher now, a professor is engagement engaging your students and this can be very difficult at times. And so picture young kids, teenagers having to sit in front of a terminal and a computer for hours. How does the teacher teach them? Keep them engaged. And so this has been a very difficult situation the last couple of years because most schools of course went for quite a one period of time into remote learning And it's one of the factors which has increased the stress level and the teaching force. One of the things I study is K through 12 teachers and as far as we can see, we're looking at a huge surge in quitting departures, retirements, early teachers, beginning teachers quitting because of the increased stress all those the last couple of years and that's all going to result in teacher shortages. Are there particular groups of students that we are seeing being impacted more than others? Well, it's pretty clear that the marginalized students or the students who have difficulties learning, perhaps they have learning disabilities, they're the ones where the challenges are going to be greatest in terms of again, this issue of how much of the day can you spend in front of a computer? I teach graduate students and it's difficult enough to teach, engage, you know, maintain engagement of the students in a lively class for a two hour seminar, think how difficult this would be with young elementary school kids and then the stresses of teachers. So, you know, the whole situation has been very difficult and as I say, I think we're going to see a big surge in the quitting of teachers. So let's continue with that line of of argument sake for for teachers as well as parents. Obviously, the emphasis should foremost be on the impact of students, but this is gonna be felt throughout the education system writ large. I mean, what what is that impact, even from where you've seen on u Penn's campus, I wonder what with teachers and and administration officials and even parents themselves who often times have not really known how to make the best faith judgment. I mean, they're, they've been faced with an incredibly difficult set of circumstances the last two years. Well, yes, and I mean, I do think it's been tougher in lower education and higher education, but yes, they, you know, so if we're looking at a teacher shortage that's going to have long term impacts on students, we already see uh, department of Ed did a national survey mid year. This year, 40% of schools have teaching positions that are vacant that are unfilled. That's, that's unprecedented mid year to have that kind of situation. So these teachers shortages are going to have a very big impact on the learning of students as had as has the last two years of remote learning. I, I haven't yet seen the latest student achievement data, but I'm fearful of what we're going to be seeing. Are you seeing an impact yet with regards to, to college enrollment? Obviously there's still a huge appetite for, for high school students to attend. Uh, Terrific schools, ivy league schools like the one that, that you work for their behind you, you pen. But you know, are we still seeing high school students with the same vigor. The same numbers of degree of enthusiasm like we had before. The pandemic say yes, I want to go oftentimes take out massive loans to, to try and go to college and university or is that calculus started to change for people you think Richard, there's certainly some hints that high school graduation rates may well suffer and that could impact undergraduate enrollments, particularly at states, colleges and universities. We don't have the data yet to really definitively say that, but that fear is out there for sure. Well I have, you can't help but notice that at least your background shows campus with snow. Um, just thinking back to my days when I was a kid, you know, I used to love snow days because back then we didn't have zoom Snowmen. Snow snow meant no school. Um, are those days gone now that at least we are in the era of zoom? I gotta imagine there few and far between are the excuses from students that they can at least log on. Well, you're raising a great question, sort of all these technological changes. We've had the last couple of years to cope with the pandemic. What are going to be the long term implications for for how we organize classrooms and how we organize education and amongst other things. Yes. Snow days make no hunger. Pks off. You know, hard to know. But you know, I mean to me, one of the lessons of the pandemic has been a re confirmation of the importance of having a live human being in front of the students that somehow we've been hearing my entire life, that technology is going to replace the teacher. Well. In some cases we could do that. But it seems to me, one of the lessons is that in person learning with real live human beings is very important, and it's really going to be hard to substitute for that. Alright, Richard Ingersoll is professor of education and sociology at the University of pennsylvania. Great to have you on the show, Professor, thanks a lot for taking the time.